Mr. Lazarowicz:
Thank you, Sir Michael, and I am sorry that I mistook the courtesy of the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso) for the conclusion of his remarks.

When the hon. Gentleman said that the amendment would effectively end the system of proportional representation in the Scottish Parliament, he was greeted by a chorus of some Labour Members saying, "Hear, hear!" There is no doubt that one of the amendment's consequences would be to move away from the proportional basis for election to the Scottish Parliament, and that some hon. Members would welcome that. No amendment that would replace the present system with 118 MSPs chosen by the first-past-the-post method could lead to a system that was anything other than grossly disproportionate. However, one of the amendments being discussed would do just that.

I remind the Committee why we have proportionality in the electoral system for the Scottish Parliament. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Mrs. Liddell) said, the change in the electoral system for local government means that there is a case for looking at the system of proportional representation used for the Scottish Parliament. However, it is worth remembering why the principle of PR was adopted by all the various parties and interest groups involved in bringing forward the proposals that eventually resulted in the Scotland Act 1998.

The PR system was not adopted because of the immense power that I wielded in Labour party committee back rooms over a few months some 15 years ago. To say that it was would be to flatter my role in the political process at that time. The Labour party supported the electoral system eventually presented in the Scotland Act because, at party conferences over more than a decade, it had supported the idea of moving towards a proportional system. That was supported, and still is, by the vast majority of trade unions, including Unison, the biggest union in Scotland. It was also supported by a wide range of organisations outside the political process, and it was supported for a number of reasons.

Some people felt that some proportional system would be fairer than first past the post, which is an argument with which I have some sympathy. One of the arguments put against a Scottish Assembly in the 1970s was that first past the post would lead to domination, based on a small plurality of the vote. If that option had been put forward in the referendum for the Scottish Parliament, it might not have gone through. Others recognised that moving to a PR system would make it harder for the Labour party to win an overall majority in the Scottish Parliament, but would also have the effect of stopping any other party, such as the Scottish nationalists, ending up with an absolute majority on a relatively small percentage of the vote.

There were many reasons why a number of organisations came together to support PR for the Scottish Parliament. Certainly, the idea that we should now reject the principle of PR, which would be the effect of the amendment, should not be adopted in the absence of broad consensus among the political parties and other organisations in Scotland. Clearly, there is no consensus for moving away from a PR system.

David Hamilton:
Not everyone agrees with the first-past-the-post system, but there is not only one proportional representation system. I believe strongly in an alternative vote system, which connects the Member with the electorate. It takes 50 per cent. plus to be elected through that system, which is an extremely good one. I wish my hon. Friend would stop justifying his position on the decision that he took some time ago which has landed us with the problem that we now face. He can rewrite history as much as he likes, but at the end of the day, that is not what this is about.

Mr. Lazarowicz:
As we are going into history, which I do not want to overdo for fear of straying from the subject, my hon. Friend will remember that one of the strongest advocates of PR for local government was the National Union of Mineworkers, of which he was an active and leading member for many years. History can take us down a number of paths if we wish to follow them.

It is worth looking at the history because it reminds us that the experience of the Scottish Parliament has not led to a majority of the public moving away from support for some form of proportionality in it. The support among the public for that is as strong as it was at the referendum in 1997. I must tell some of my hon. Friends that it is not me, others who share my view or the Government who are out of step with Scottish public opinion on this matter, but some of those among my colleagues who argue against the principle of proportionality.

Mr. Tynan :
Unless I am wrong, my hon. Friend seems to be speaking about political expediency in the introduction of proportional representation in the Scottish Parliament. We have to consider the electorate's participation in PR systems. Does he agree that turning to PR for the European elections has been an absolute disaster for turnout, but that turnout for the last Scottish Parliament election certainly did not suggest that PR was the answer as far as the people of the country are concerned?

Mr. Lazarowicz:
I am not for one minute suggesting that proportionality is any electoral panacea for Scotland or elsewhere. As with history, statistics can be interpreted in various ways. The drop in turnout between the 1997 and 2001 UK general elections, held under the first-past-the-post system, was even greater than the drop between the Scottish Parliament elections of 1999 and 2003. Different things can be drawn out depending on the argument one wishes to make.

The essential point, which cannot be contradicted, is that there is not a groundswell of opinion in Scotland for moving away from some form of proportionality. Given the introduction of PR for local government, which has gone through the Scottish Parliament and which will happen, no matter what, we have to consider how the different systems will mesh together. Although I was as happy 14 years ago to support the principle of proportionality as I am today, I actually spoke against the system of two ballot papers. Unfortunately and regrettably, as on other issues, my wise counsel was ignored by those who made the decisions. There we are; that, too, is history.

There is no broad consensus among political parties and other groups in Scotland, or among the population, if opinion polls are to be believed, for moving away from proportionality. If we are to change the electoral system, one thing we certainly cannot do is impose that change on the Scottish people and the Scottish Parliament from Westminster. For reasons that we might go into later, I do not accept the Scottish National party's position that the right to change the electoral system should be devolved to the Scottish Parliament. However, the spirit of any change in the system should certainly go with any broad consensus not just in this Parliament but in the Scottish Parliament and among the Scottish people.

Mr. Salmond:
My old university friend might go the extra step by accepting the principle that a self-respecting Parliament should be in charge of its own electoral system. If he did that, who knows but that he might gain a few friends in the House, which he seems sorely to need at present?

Mr. Lazarowicz:
The hon. Gentleman clearly wants to help me to maintain my friendships on my own Benches. We could debate examples later of how Parliaments and regional assemblies elsewhere in Europe make decisions on changes to their rules. That would be of interest to at least three or four of us.

The principle that we cannot impose change by edict on the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish political settlement needs to be emphasised from the Labour Benches. Since the Scottish Parliament was established, a new political reality has developed. The Scottish Parliament and the political arena around it are well established and as greatly respected as any other political institution in the UK, including this Parliament. That is the nature of the devolutionary change brought about gradually throughout the UK. Politics are not centred here in Westminster, but are being devolved in a real and direct sense.

Mr. Donohoe:
Will my hon. Friend give way?

Mr. Lazarowicz:
If my hon. Friend would not mind, I shall continue for a moment. We must recognise that the view, which he recommends, that we can do what we want because we have a majority and can force change through the Scottish Parliament is fundamentally undemocratic. Of course there are times when Governments have to make difficult decisions that may be against the broad body of public opinion. That should not be done regularly, especially by political parties that wish to have continued electoral support.

Mr. Donohoe:
My hon. Friend has argued that the Parliament is doing well and is settled. Has he had any problems with added list Members?

Mr. Lazarowicz:
No, I have not had any difficulties with additional Members and the activities that some of my hon. Friends have described. However, I accept that some additional Members have acted as he described, and that is one reason why we might seek to change the type of proportionality without abandoning it completely.

John Barrett:
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that under the amendments the two new regions would have 56 constituencies, with five or six list Members in each? One of the main arguments for a decent proportional system is to avoid the risk of a minority extreme Government ever being elected again. After all, we speak on the anniversary of the day that Margaret Thatcher was elected to Government on 40 per cent. of the vote.

Mr. Lazarowicz:
I have made a strong enough case for proportionality already without being tempted down that road.

The establishment of the Scottish Parliament has had one of the consequences that those of us who supported hoped that it would. By establishing a Scottish Parliament, it was hoped that the case for devolution in the UK would be strengthened and the case for separatism would be weakened. That has indeed happened. As support for independence has declined, support for devolution has increased. It is no accident that the Scottish National party is now tearing itself apart over whether to embrace extreme independence or to make use of devolution. The establishment of the Scottish Parliament has sidelined the SNP and its demands for independence.

The irony is that the political victories that have been won by those of us who support devolution and the Union, and oppose independence, could be put at risk by those who would try to impose a political settlement on the Scottish Parliament—in terms of proportionality and number of Members—that would not be supported by our Labour colleagues or, indeed, by the vast majority of Scottish political organisations or Scottish society more generally. To follow the path suggested by some of my hon. Friends tonight would be to snatch political defeat from the jaws of victory.